LR (W7) to Pro9500 dilemma

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After searching through this forum and others I cannot find the solution...hopefully I can get some guidance here. The problem is this: I am attempting to print from LR 4.3 where LR is managing color (FWIW, if the printer manages color, the result is closer to what I expected). If I click the Soft Proofing button in develop and choose my printer in the profile area (as opposed to RGB) the screen image looks like that printed. Unfortunately, this image is bad....I want to get the proofed image as well as the printer output to look like the original RBG profile. What the heck am I doing wrong? ..yeah, just a little exasperated...thanks.

Others may have comments, but based on what you say, if you have LR's print module controlling the color, you need to make sure two things are done: (1) Pick the correct ICC profile for your paper (and Epson printer) w/in LR. (2) Go to the printer properties, and turn off any printer "profiles." (With Epson, that is under "advanced," then "ICM," then color management "off.") You will also want to make sure that other printer settings (paper type, quality settings, size) are set for what kind of paper you are running (e.g., Epson Photo Glossy, or whatever, at 8 x 10, or whatever). If you haven't set it up this way--to ensure that LR is controlling the printing based on its ICC profile, rather than the printer--you will likely end up with a mess. There are other considerations ("relative" vs. "perceptual," making sure your monitor is calibrated, etc.), but if (1) and (2) aren't followed, nothing will work. I couldn't tell from your post whether this is how you were proceeding....

TomHJ wrote: Others may have comments, but based on what you say, if you have LR's print module controlling the color, you need to make sure two things are done: (1) Pick the correct ICC profile for your paper (and Epson printer) w/in LR. (2) Go to the printer properties, and turn off any printer "profiles." (With Epson, that is under "advanced," then "ICM," then color management "off.") You will also want to make sure that other printer settings (paper type, quality settings, size) are set for what kind of paper you are running (e.g., Epson Photo Glossy, or whatever, at 8 x 10, or whatever). If you haven't set it up this way--to ensure that LR is controlling the printing based on its ICC profile, rather than the printer--you will likely end up with a mess. There are other considerations ("relative" vs. "perceptual," making sure your monitor is calibrated, etc.), but if (1) and (2) aren't followed, nothing will work. I couldn't tell from your post whether this is how you were proceeding....
Thanks for the reply...I am using an ICC profile (Canon paper) on the Canon printer...and I believe I have turned off color management on the printer but honestly, I can't be sure. Using relative and perceptual didn't make much of a difference. The monitor is calibrated using ColorMunki Display.... thanks

vwcrusher wrote: After searching through this forum and others I cannot find the solution...hopefully I can get some guidance here. The problem is this: I am attempting to print from LR 4.3 where LR is managing color (FWIW, if the printer manages color, the result is closer to what I expected). If I click the Soft Proofing button in develop and choose my printer in the profile area (as opposed to RGB) the screen image looks like that printed. Unfortunately, this image is bad....I want to get the proofed image as well as the printer output to look like the original RBG profile.
There should be several profiles, one for each paper/printer combination. You have only one profile? In the list of profiles, if you go down to the bottom, there should be an 'Other ...', if you select that you should then be given a complete list of installed ICC profiles. Brian A

Thanks for the reply...yep, did all that....

Here you go. I made this tutorial for the Canon Pixma PRO 9000 MKII using the Colormunki, but the same exact process will apply to your PRO 9500 MKII which I also have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0N-jgaJY94

Thanks for the link...I do not have that version of ColorMunki; I have the display model. That being said, as I noted earlier (perhaps not succinctly) I cannot seem to alter the image in LR with the printer chosen as the profile in the develop module.....

So the print is fine when letting the driver manage color? The print is not good when attempting to use the correct paper profile in LR and turning color management off in the driver? And the print with LR manages color looks like the soft proof in LR, which also doesn’t look good? And you cannot make adjustments in LR? Brian A

Hugowolf wrote: So the print is fine when letting the driver manage color? The print is not good when attempting to use the correct paper profile in LR and turning color management off in the driver? And the print with LR manages color looks like the soft proof in LR, which also doesn’t look good? And you cannot make adjustments in LR? Brian A
Yep....I have put the original image next to the soft proof and cannot make the soft proof look like the original.....

How does the NON soft proofed image look like to your printer one. Assuming your Printer is using OEM inks papers, your monitor is properly calibrated, you have turned color management off in your printer driver and you have chosen your proper and Matching ICC profile for your paper within LR ( Printer module, bottom right. ) your image should pretty much match. This might start a war but the truth is I do not ever bother with soft proofing. The only proofing I trust and can 100% believe in is the look of the actual final print. Soft proofing has its use and many folk swear by it but, is it merely an approximation or simulation that utilizes your paper ICC to suggest what your printed image MIGHT look like. Whenever I create a new profile for a new paper I will soft proof simply to see just how that particular profille might affect my image on a particular paper I made it for, but I try not to to bet the farm on it. The only way to know is to print the image. Joe

jtoolman wrote: How does the NON soft proofed image look like to your printer one. Assuming your Printer is using OEM inks papers, your monitor is properly calibrated, you have turned color management off in your printer driver and you have chosen your proper and Matching ICC profile for your paper within LR ( Printer module, bottom right. ) your image should pretty much match. This might start a war but the truth is I do not ever bother with soft proofing. The only proofing I trust and can 100% believe in is the look of the actual final print. Soft proofing has its use and many folk swear by it but, is it merely an approximation or simulation that utilizes your paper ICC to suggest what your printed image MIGHT look like. Whenever I create a new profile for a new paper I will soft proof simply to see just how that particular profille might affect my image on a particular paper I made it for, but I try not to to bet the farm on it. The only way to know is to print the image. Joe
I agree that the final printed image is the ultimate test, but my issue is that I am unable(for some reason) to get the printer to produce an image identical (similar) to the one I finished editing in the develop module.

vwcrusher wrote:
jtoolman wrote: How does the NON soft proofed image look like to your printer one. Assuming your Printer is using OEM inks papers, your monitor is properly calibrated, you have turned color management off in your printer driver and you have chosen your proper and Matching ICC profile for your paper within LR ( Printer module, bottom right. ) your image should pretty much match. This might start a war but the truth is I do not ever bother with soft proofing. The only proofing I trust and can 100% believe in is the look of the actual final print. Soft proofing has its use and many folk swear by it but, is it merely an approximation or simulation that utilizes your paper ICC to suggest what your printed image MIGHT look like. Whenever I create a new profile for a new paper I will soft proof simply to see just how that particular profille might affect my image on a particular paper I made it for, but I try not to to bet the farm on it. The only way to know is to print the image. Joe
I agree that the final printed image is the ultimate test, but my issue is that I am unable(for some reason) to get the printer to produce an image identical (similar) to the one I finished editing in the develop module.
Of course! You have to be doing something along the line. WHat I do is set up my printer driver through the Devices and Printers dialog. Right click the canon printer icon - Printer Prefferences - Color Intensity/Image Adjustment - Matching - None That will turn off color management to ANY application you print from. So all you have to do within the print module in LR is to go to page setup ( Lower left ) chose printer, paper type and quality. Then on the right lowest side of the printer module choose the correct ICC profile for your Canon and paper. Like I said, if you are still not getting correct colors and very close results, something is definitely wrong. That is assuming you are using OEM Inks and Papers. If you jumsp to Compatible carts, refillables and or 3rd party papers,, it's a whole new ball game. Did you watch my video?

Thanks...I will give that a try. One question: should I unclick the soft proofing button? If not should I use the printer or RGB profile? and BTW if I do that the image changes for the bad.. I did watch your video.

vwcrusher wrote: Thanks...I will give that a try. One question: should I unclick the soft proofing button?
Yes don't use it until you understand how to work with a BASIC Color Managed Workflow first.
If not should I use the printer or RGB profile?
I really don't know what you are trying to do here.
and BTW if I do that the image changes for the bad..
It will allways look worse that without soft proofing. Believe me it will print better than the soft proofing indicated. I DO NOT use it. I can pretty much print with "My Eyes CLosed " as long as I am following the correct work flow.
I did watch your video
Then you should be all set. Joe

vwcrusher wrote:
Hugowolf wrote: So the print is fine when letting the driver manage color? The print is not good when attempting to use the correct paper profile in LR and turning color management off in the driver? And the print with LR manages color looks like the soft proof in LR, which also doesn’t look good? And you cannot make adjustments in LR? Brian A
Yep....I have put the original image next to the soft proof and cannot make the soft proof look like the original.....
I don't know why you would want to do that. The print with LR managing color using the correct profile should be pretty close to the one with the printer managing color, without you having to do any adjustments. If the two prints, without adjustments, differ that much, then something is deeply wrong in your workflow. You are missing a settting, or more, somewhere. Brian A

Hugowolf wrote:
vwcrusher wrote:
Hugowolf wrote: So the print is fine when letting the driver manage color? The print is not good when attempting to use the correct paper profile in LR and turning color management off in the driver? And the print with LR manages color looks like the soft proof in LR, which also doesn’t look good? And you cannot make adjustments in LR? Brian A
Yep....I have put the original image next to the soft proof and cannot make the soft proof look like the original.....
I don't know why you would want to do that. The print with LR managing color using the correct profile should be pretty close to the one with the printer managing color, without you having to do any adjustments. If the two prints, without adjustments, differ that much, then something is deeply wrong in your workflow. You are missing a settting, or more, somewhere. Brian A
It should be close but its not.....that is the problem. I am sure there is a problem with my workflow...and the reason for my inquiry.

I'm so puzzled here. Why is everyone ignoring that the soft-proofed monitor image and the print match. Duh! That is the goal. That fact shifts the mystery elsewhere. The question is why can't OP edit the monitor image to look like he wants so that the print (which follows the soft proof) will too? OP, what do you mean you can't adjust the soft-proofed image to look like you want? Brightness, contrast, etc. have no effect? Color correction doesn't work? What is happening on the soft-proof image when you try to adjust it? Robert

rpenmanparker wrote: I'm so puzzled here. Why is everyone ignoring that the soft-proofed monitor image and the print match. Duh! That is the goal. That fact shifts the mystery elsewhere.
We are talking about OEM inks and paper. The main problem is that prints with the 'printer manages color' should be very, very similar to prints made with LR manages color and color managment turned off in the printer, with no adjustments whatsoever. If they are not then something is wrong in the workflow. Until the workflow problem is fixed, there isn't much point in considering making adjustments. Hard proofing is as acurate as it gets. The soft proofing in LR and Photoshop can be best described as very approximate. However, with the soft proof looking bad too, it seems probable that the ICC profile selection could be wrong. And there is the most common problem, color management hasn't been completely turned off in the driver. Brian A

Hugowolf wrote:
rpenmanparker wrote: I'm so puzzled here. Why is everyone ignoring that the soft-proofed monitor image and the print match. Duh! That is the goal. That fact shifts the mystery elsewhere.
We are talking about OEM inks and paper. The main problem is that prints with the 'printer manages color' should be very, very similar to prints made with LR manages color and color managment turned off in the printer, with no adjustments whatsoever. If they are not then something is wrong in the workflow. Until the workflow problem is fixed, there isn't much point in considering making adjustments. Hard proofing is as acurate as it gets. The soft proofing in LR and Photoshop can be best described as very approximate. However, with the soft proof looking bad too, it seems probable that the ICC profile selection could be wrong. And there is the most common problem, color management hasn't been completely turned off in the driver. Brian A
I suspect that is the problem. He might be applying the WRONG profile to the image while soft proofing. SO of course it looks bad. I can get and identical pair of prints. One allowing the printer to control color and not in LR and one letting LR control color through the correct paper profile and NOT allowing the driver to control color. Something silly is going on here and probably so obvious as to go under the radar.

rpenmanparker wrote: I'm so puzzled here. Why is everyone ignoring that the soft-proofed monitor image and the print match. Duh! That is the goal. That fact shifts the mystery elsewhere. The question is why can't OP edit the monitor image to look like he wants so that the print (which follows the soft proof) will too? OP, what do you mean you can't adjust the soft-proofed image to look like you want? Brightness, contrast, etc. have no effect? Color correction doesn't work? What is happening on the soft-proof image when you try to adjust it? Robert
OK!!!!! Now I finally get what the OP is trying to do. BUT he also does not seem to understand why the image looks bad when soft proofing is applied.

First off, thanks guys for helping me out. I just printed the same image - below is the set up: 1) Printer driver is turned off 2) Soft proofing is turned off (therefore there is no choice on profile) 3) Printing with Canon matte paper (chosen as paper profile) and inks 4) LR is managing color 5) Monitor has been calibrated with ColorMunki Display ...and...It closely matches the monitor!! Being printed on matte paper, it looks a bit different, and there is a slight blue caste in the monitor's image that is not as strong in the printed image...but all in all, its way closer than before. I think the basic issue was that I thought I had disabled the printer driver, but apparently I didn't. Thank you all very much!

I used Perceptual color management instead of Relative...not sure if this is important.

vwcrusher wrote: I used Perceptual color management instead of Relative...not sure if this is important.
Percetual or Relative colorimetric is NOT color management per se. It is part of the total process. The are know as Rendering Intents. Use perceptual and black point compensation for most if not all of your images and you'll be fine.

vwcrusher wrote: First off, thanks guys for helping me out. I just printed the same image - below is the set up: 1) Printer driver is turned off 2) Soft proofing is turned off (therefore there is no choice on profile) 3) Printing with Canon matte paper (chosen as paper profile) and inks 4) LR is managing color 5) Monitor has been calibrated with ColorMunki Display ...and...It closely matches the monitor!! Being printed on matte paper, it looks a bit different, and there is a slight blue caste in the monitor's image that is not as strong in the printed image...but all in all, its way closer than before. I think the basic issue was that I thought I had disabled the printer driver, but apparently I didn't. Thank you all very much!
There you go! I assume you mean that Color Management has been set to none in the Canon Printer driver right? Soft proofing can be used but often what I have found is that when I have a great ICC for a specific paper I get very little change in look between no SP and SP. So I end up hardly ever using SP. Yes you choose canon matte paper as you paer choice in your canon driver. When you say LR is managing colors I hope you mean that you have choosen the ICC profile for Canon Matte IMAGE(http://dpzen.com/dpzattaches/dpzattachesm//2014092509364736729.jpg) IMAGE(http://dpzen.com/dpzattaches/dpzattachesm//2014092509364836731.jpg) You click on the right side Bottom most section and click on the profile and then click on OTHER and locate the profile and nmark it with an XIs you did not do this then you have not still properly set it up.

Yes to all your comments/guidance....now I can focus (no pun intended) on fine tuning what the printer produces versus what I see on the monitor. Again, thanks for the assistance : )

vwcrusher wrote: Yes to all your comments/guidance....now I can focus (no pun intended) on fine tuning what the printer produces versus what I see on the monitor. Again, thanks for the assistance : )
How are you going to do this fine tunning and where. WHen your monitor is properly calibrated for ALL aspects and you are printing through the correct ICC profile for your printer, paper and inks there are not adjustments needed. If you are getting a bluish image and you monitor image also looks bluish then maybe it's a matter of adujsting your image file's color balance. But you do ZERO adjustment during hte printing process. Your ICC profiles takes care of it. Assuming it is a correctly made profile and you are matching the settings that were used during its creation. Such as Paper, and printing resolution or Quality and the matching rendering intent.

he only has the CM Display to calibrate the monitor only. Bob P.

Petruska wrote: he only has the CM Display to calibrate the monitor only. Bob P.
This is true - so I assumed that trial and error will have to suffice......unless I am again missing something....

vwcrusher wrote:
Petruska wrote: he only has the CM Display to calibrate the monitor only. Bob P.
This is true - so I assumed that trial and error will have to suffice......unless I am again missing something....
So why should THAT keep you from calibrating your monitor again? Once that's done what would keep you from using an OEM Paer / Ink and ICC profile from Canon FOR th 9500MKII? Armed with that you should be getting near perfect prints. Remeber the MOST importand Factor When you display that price image onyour wall and people are admiring it,,, I bet you a million dollars NO ONE except one of US Dpreview Printing Geeks will ask you, " Yeah but does it look identical to what you saw in your monitor?" Don't loose any sleep over this. Just get it as close as you can. You NEVER WILL!!!! But you can always get close.

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